Need advice - Job

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detroitbabu
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Need advice - Job

Post by detroitbabu » Fri Jul 28, 2017 4:42 am

I have a new job offer.
Base Salary is approx. 17% higher. This was their first offer. Still negotiating. I may get an additional 10%.
Benefits, bonus etc. pretty much similar.
But new job has 1 hour each way commute in the opposite direction of rush hour traffic.

Does it make sense to go back to my boss and ask him to match?
Current job, I work from home.
Work content would be pretty similar but it will be in a different industry.
I like my current boss, team and work but have been there for a long time.

Any advice?
Thanks.

AgentHoopla
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Re: Need advice - Job

Post by AgentHoopla » Fri Jul 28, 2017 5:17 am

Depends, if you like your current job and your boss is willing to match the new job offer, or at least come up 15%ish to what your making now, I would consider working from home a awesome benefit.

However if you dont mind showing up to work somewhere and want to make more money, and your boss isnt willing to match 100%, go to the new job.

Liberty1100
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Re: Need advice - Job

Post by Liberty1100 » Fri Jul 28, 2017 5:38 am

Don't ask for a match, just ask for a raise and not mention your job offer.

Usually when management hears you have been looking and then asked to match your pay, you will be the next to go. Management may see it as a sign of your lack of loyalty. If they ever need to cut someone, you will be the easy choice as someone who makes more now and they won't feel so bad firing you as they think you can find a job easily. Don't tell them unless you are 100% going to leave.

Would you be able to move if you accept the job offer?

student
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Re: Need advice - Job

Post by student » Fri Jul 28, 2017 5:45 am

If the current salary is X, then the hourly rate is about X/2088 with 261 workdays. So a 20% pay raise gives 1.2X. But you need to spend an extra two hours per day. So your effective hourly rate is 1.2X/2610=X/2175. So the answer is no. You need a 25% pay raise to get the same effective hourly rate. However, this is just by the numbers. One may be willing to work more for additional pay even if the rate is lower.

Swansea
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Re: Need advice - Job

Post by Swansea » Fri Jul 28, 2017 6:00 am

Keep in mind that commute times will almost always get longer, not shorter.

carolinaman
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Re: Need advice - Job

Post by carolinaman » Fri Jul 28, 2017 6:44 am

Liberty1100 wrote:Don't ask for a match, just ask for a raise and not mention your job offer.

Usually when management hears you have been looking and then asked to match your pay, you will be the next to go. Management may see it as a sign of your lack of loyalty. If they ever need to cut someone, you will be the easy choice as someone who makes more now and they won't feel so bad firing you as they think you can find a job easily. Don't tell them unless you are 100% going to leave.

Would you be able to move if you accept the job offer?
I agree. As a manager, I dealt with this situation many times. I reluctantly matched the offer several times and found that the person was usually gone in 2 years anyway. I finally got to the point where I simply would not match offer because this type of employee would be gone soon anyway and it was not good for morale of rest of the staff. I always remembered the people who did this and I do not think it bodes well for their future relationship with the company. OTOH, asking for a raise is a reasonable thing, especially if it is done in a non threatening way.

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StevieG72
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Re: Need advice - Job

Post by StevieG72 » Fri Jul 28, 2017 6:48 am

1 hour each way drive time vs. working at home?

While that 17% increase sounds nice, much of it will be spent on transportation costs.
Fools think their own way is right, but the wise listen to others.

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vinvedi
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Re: Need advice - Job

Post by vinvedi » Fri Jul 28, 2017 3:17 pm

carolinaman wrote:
Liberty1100 wrote: Don't ask for a match, just ask for a raise and not mention your job offer.

Usually when management hears you have been looking and then asked to match your pay, you will be the next to go. Management may see it as a sign of your lack of loyalty. If they ever need to cut someone, you will be the easy choice as someone who makes more now and they won't feel so bad firing you as they think you can find a job easily. Don't tell them unless you are 100% going to leave.

Would you be able to move if you accept the job offer?
I agree. As a manager, I dealt with this situation many times. I reluctantly matched the offer several times and found that the person was usually gone in 2 years anyway. I finally got to the point where I simply would not match offer because this type of employee would be gone soon anyway and it was not good for morale of rest of the staff. I always remembered the people who did this and I do not think it bodes well for their future relationship with the company. OTOH, asking for a raise is a reasonable thing, especially if it is done in a non threatening way.
+2 Just make a good case for promotion and see how your boss responds. This will be an important feedback about how the current employer values your contributions. You must know more before embarking on 'stay/leave' train

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Elsebet
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Re: Need advice - Job

Post by Elsebet » Fri Jul 28, 2017 3:32 pm

Work at home jobs are not easy to find, I feel like that pay increase would be much smaller after considering costs like transportation, eating out, and loss of personal time.

ETadvisor
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Re: Need advice - Job

Post by ETadvisor » Fri Jul 28, 2017 3:35 pm

StevieG72 wrote:1 hour each way drive time vs. working at home?

While that 17% increase sounds nice, much of it will be spent on transportation costs.
+1 Do you have to pay tolls or pay for parking?

BeneIRA
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Re: Need advice - Job

Post by BeneIRA » Fri Jul 28, 2017 3:39 pm

I would just ask for a raise and not mention the offer, as others have noted. If it is a hard no and the money is worth it to you, you could leave and possibly come back down the line.

Beth*
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Re: Need advice - Job

Post by Beth* » Fri Jul 28, 2017 3:45 pm

Do you need the extra money? Are you having trouble paying bills and leading a reasonable life-style?

My thoughts on money are that we all need a certain amount to maintain a reasonable life-style without worrying about money all the time. Worrying about paying bills is no fun at all. However, once you hit that level of income, other things become equally as important as money if not more so. Two hours of lost time a day is very far from trivial.

indexonlyplease
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Re: Need advice - Job

Post by indexonlyplease » Fri Jul 28, 2017 3:55 pm

I think for work nothing worse than a long commute. I don't care how much more you make. I would of taking a pay cut to have a short ride to work. Or take the better job and move next to the new job. You spend enough time at work adding 2 hrs of drive time make it worse. So instead of 8 hr day you have a 10-11 hr day. Divide the hourly rate to the extra 10 plus hrs of drive time.

JBTX
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Re: Need advice - Job

Post by JBTX » Fri Jul 28, 2017 4:15 pm

Liberty1100 wrote:Don't ask for a match, just ask for a raise and not mention your job offer.

Usually when management hears you have been looking and then asked to match your pay, you will be the next to go. Management may see it as a sign of your lack of loyalty. If they ever need to cut someone, you will be the easy choice as someone who makes more now and they won't feel so bad firing you as they think you can find a job easily. Don't tell them unless you are 100% going to leave.

Would you be able to move if you accept the job offer?
I disagree. It is expected most talented people are going to get approached and get offers. At large companies that go through formal evaluation processes and do annual wage increases it is hard to just go ask for a raise. Typically your boss is going to have to run that up the chain and get approval. If you present that you got on offer but would really like to stay here and ask is there anything they can do to at least keep it competitive you have more leverage. And is easier for your boss to run it up the chain because there is an actionable competitive offer. This happened to me twice as a boss and both times I was able to get them a raise. I did so because they were among my best employees and I wanted to keep them.

It really comes down to your relationship with your boss and whether you are perceived as a high performer. Be realistic in that assessment. If you are perceived as middle of the pack they may just wish you best of luck.

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gunn_show
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Re: Need advice - Job

Post by gunn_show » Fri Jul 28, 2017 6:49 pm

StevieG72 wrote:1 hour each way drive time vs. working at home?

While that 17% increase sounds nice, much of it will be spent on transportation costs.
+1 no way. I work from home, making damn good money, meaning 17% more for me would be a big chunk of change, and that would not come close to taking me away from 0 /daily 0 /weekly commute to 2 hrs /day 10 hrs/week minimum driving. Not to mention getting professionally dressed every day (and the cost to refresh your wardrobe if you need to), and the costs of gas and car maintenance. That 17% will shrink very rapidly. And realize that is not just a 1 hour commute each way, you have to add the new time required to wake up, get dressed, do what you need to do to leave the house, and then start your commute. I presume you do very little of that today.

Go talk to your boss and find a way to get a raise.
"I love competition. And I want to win." R. Murdoch

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jabberwockOG
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Re: Need advice - Job

Post by jabberwockOG » Fri Jul 28, 2017 6:58 pm

JBTX wrote:
Liberty1100 wrote:Don't ask for a match, just ask for a raise and not mention your job offer.

Usually when management hears you have been looking and then asked to match your pay, you will be the next to go. Management may see it as a sign of your lack of loyalty. If they ever need to cut someone, you will be the easy choice as someone who makes more now and they won't feel so bad firing you as they think you can find a job easily. Don't tell them unless you are 100% going to leave.

Would you be able to move if you accept the job offer?
I disagree. It is expected most talented people are going to get approached and get offers. At large companies that go through formal evaluation processes and do annual wage increases it is hard to just go ask for a raise. Typically your boss is going to have to run that up the chain and get approval. If you present that you got on offer but would really like to stay here and ask is there anything they can do to at least keep it competitive you have more leverage. And is easier for your boss to run it up the chain because there is an actionable competitive offer. This happened to me twice as a boss and both times I was able to get them a raise. I did so because they were among my best employees and I wanted to keep them.

It really comes down to your relationship with your boss and whether you are perceived as a high performer. Be realistic in that assessment. If you are perceived as middle of the pack they may just wish you best of luck.


100% agree. In most large companies going in to ask for a raise is useless - companies operate on formal review and raise cycles. But if you go in to let them know you have a pending job offer this changes things, your manager (and their manager at a minimum) if and only if they place a high value on you can use an exception raise/promotion/retention bonus process designed to retain valuable employees. Remarkable increases and promotions can sometimes result from this process or your manager can sometimes just wish you best of luck in your new position. Either way you win.

Once you have a solid final written offer in hand (and not a minute before) ask for a meeting with your current manager and let them know you have an offer. You do not need to specify to them how you got the offer - it is none of their business. Instead let them know if you are sincerely interested in remaining in current job but that you expect "X" plus an immediate salary match to the offer to remain and that you need an answer in next 1-2 days. Make sure your pending written offer states in writing that it is good for a minimum 3-5 days while you consider the move and wait for a counter offer.

Also just be very careful taking on a big commute - few things are more exhausting and enervating that a long commute. Think about moving locations if you are serious about the new job. as others have said 17% increase in not enough to take on 2 hours of commuting a day.

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Watty
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Re: Need advice - Job

Post by Watty » Fri Jul 28, 2017 7:17 pm

detroitbabu wrote:Benefits, bonus etc. pretty much similar.
But new job has 1 hour each way commute in the opposite direction of rush hour traffic.
Would it be practical to move much closer to the new job?
detroitbabu wrote:Base Salary is approx. 17% higher. This was their first offer. Still negotiating. I may get an additional 10%.
It would be good to do a dummy tax return to figure out what the after tax difference would be.

Getting a 25% bump in pay sounds like a lot but when you look at home much it could be in after tax income or retirement savings it could easily double(or more) how much you are able to save or how much your disposable income is.

JBTX
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Re: Need advice - Job

Post by JBTX » Sat Jul 29, 2017 1:35 am

jabberwockOG wrote:
JBTX wrote:
Liberty1100 wrote:Don't ask for a match, just ask for a raise and not mention your job offer.

Usually when management hears you have been looking and then asked to match your pay, you will be the next to go. Management may see it as a sign of your lack of loyalty. If they ever need to cut someone, you will be the easy choice as someone who makes more now and they won't feel so bad firing you as they think you can find a job easily. Don't tell them unless you are 100% going to leave.

Would you be able to move if you accept the job offer?
I disagree. It is expected most talented people are going to get approached and get offers. At large companies that go through formal evaluation processes and do annual wage increases it is hard to just go ask for a raise. Typically your boss is going to have to run that up the chain and get approval. If you present that you got on offer but would really like to stay here and ask is there anything they can do to at least keep it competitive you have more leverage. And is easier for your boss to run it up the chain because there is an actionable competitive offer. This happened to me twice as a boss and both times I was able to get them a raise. I did so because they were among my best employees and I wanted to keep them.

It really comes down to your relationship with your boss and whether you are perceived as a high performer. Be realistic in that assessment. If you are perceived as middle of the pack they may just wish you best of luck.


100% agree. In most large companies going in to ask for a raise is useless - companies operate on formal review and raise cycles. But if you go in to let them know you have a pending job offer this changes things, your manager (and their manager at a minimum) if and only if they place a high value on you can use an exception raise/promotion/retention bonus process designed to retain valuable employees. Remarkable increases and promotions can sometimes result from this process or your manager can sometimes just wish you best of luck in your new position. Either way you win.

Once you have a solid final written offer in hand (and not a minute before) ask for a meeting with your current manager and let them know you have an offer. You do not need to specify to them how you got the offer - it is none of their business. Instead let them know if you are sincerely interested in remaining in current job but that you expect "X" plus an immediate salary match to the offer to remain and that you need an answer in next 1-2 days. Make sure your pending written offer states in writing that it is good for a minimum 3-5 days while you consider the move and wait for a counter offer.

Also just be very careful taking on a big commute - few things are more exhausting and enervating that a long commute. Think about moving locations if you are serious about the new job. as others have said 17% increase in not enough to take on 2 hours of commuting a day.
Good to know I'm not alone on this. I've worked for several Fortune 500 companies and the process is usually pretty similar. Departments have budgets that include budgeted salaries. Then there are formal annual merit reviews. Any abnormal increases usually need a couple of levels of approval. As such just going in and asking for a raise is a fruitless activity. I am always perplexed by these articles and job sites who give advice about how to go ask for a raise. It RARELY happens that way. However if you have a competitive offer in hand and are a good performer you have much more leverage. The last thing a manager wants to do is have to lose a good employee and then hire somebody from scratch and train them and possibly pay them more money.

Also I have heard numerous times from people that have made it to upper mgt that they never asked for a raise. Typically opportunities will come and compensation will follow.

Now it could be totally different for a smaller company.

scooterdog
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Re: Need advice - Job

Post by scooterdog » Sat Jul 29, 2017 6:37 am

Lots of great input here.

To add my own experience: remote employee working from home, offered +20%, met with Fortune 500 managers very soon after getting an offer in writing to give notice. Counter-offer was made (was ready for this) for an increased title, different manager and scope of work, and politely declined because reasons.

The new commute was only 15 minutes, going for 1 hour in a reverse-traffic situation like you describe depends on how you view a commute like this. When I lived in Los Angeles I did a 45 minute reverse-traffic commute for several years, it actually was not bad at all. Strangely satisfying to fly along while many hundreds of cars are stuck in traffic going the other way. :D

One other bit of advice - use the 1 hour commute and the work-from-home as a negotiating tool. Perhaps 1 or 2 days a week you can work remotely?

detroitbabu
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Re: Need advice - Job

Post by detroitbabu » Sat Jul 29, 2017 8:13 am

Thanks everyone.
I have been busy interviewing so will take some time to digest all the replies and post in a day or two.

JuniorBH
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Re: Need advice - Job

Post by JuniorBH » Sat Jul 29, 2017 1:20 pm

I agree with a lot of the other posters who have said not to go in and say "I have xx offer, will you match". It sets the wrong tone right off the bat.

Personally, I would go to my manager and ask for a raise; do a little market research and point out to him/her that you're seeing similar positions in the market at % higher and while you don't want to leave, you can't afford to leave money on the table. One way to phrase it is "I have LinkedIn recruiters emailing

At big companies, I understand that may not accomplish anything because of all the approvals needed to get a raise (I work at such a company). But, if you do this step first and it gets you no where, then you can go get an offer and tell them to match. Once you get to this point though, be prepared to leave if they aren't going to match.

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Re: Need advice - Job

Post by Jack FFR1846 » Sat Jul 29, 2017 1:50 pm

I'm going to ask....do you prefer working from home? I've done it and would gladly commute an hour each way to avoid it (and have). I'm in a good situation now where I could either work from home or drive 5.2 miles to the office. In a year and a half of being in this job, I have never worked from home. They would have to double my pay to work from home.
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Traveler
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Re: Need advice - Job

Post by Traveler » Sun Jul 30, 2017 9:18 pm

Jack FFR1846 wrote:I'm going to ask....do you prefer working from home? I've done it and would gladly commute an hour each way to avoid it (and have). I'm in a good situation now where I could either work from home or drive 5.2 miles to the office. In a year and a half of being in this job, I have never worked from home. They would have to double my pay to work from home.
I thought I was the only one who would hate working from home. I don't want work infringing on my personal time/space. Besides I have a 2 mile commute so it's not a big deal to go to the office.

stoptothink
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Re: Need advice - Job

Post by stoptothink » Sun Jul 30, 2017 9:58 pm

Jack FFR1846 wrote:I'm going to ask....do you prefer working from home? I've done it and would gladly commute an hour each way to avoid it (and have). I'm in a good situation now where I could either work from home or drive 5.2 miles to the office. In a year and a half of being in this job, I have never worked from home. They would have to double my pay to work from home.
Because of the nature of my job, I can work almost exclusively remotely and do some (especially, when kids are sick or childcare is closed), but I as well prefer to go into the office. But, my office is a 7min walk from my front door. If I needed to hop in a car, there is no way I'd prefer going into the office. I paid a premium to buy a home close enough to my office to walk and for my wife to have a very short (<3 mile) commute. IMO, pretty much nothing worse than work commuting.

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F150HD
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Re: Need advice - Job

Post by F150HD » Sun Jul 30, 2017 10:05 pm

duplicate. deleted.
Last edited by F150HD on Sun Jul 30, 2017 10:31 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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F150HD
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Re: Need advice - Job

Post by F150HD » Sun Jul 30, 2017 10:10 pm

Base Salary is approx. 17% higher. This was their first offer. Still negotiating. I may get an additional 10%.
Benefits, bonus etc. pretty much similar.
But new job has 1 hour each way commute in the opposite direction of rush hour traffic.

Current job, I work from home.

2 hrs a day is basically an extra day per week just 'driving' (10 hrs). Throw in fuel, wear/tear on vehicle, increase in auto insurance, loss of time w/ family and friends, driving in bad weather (snow? etc)....to me that isn't worth a 17% increase in pay. Its about a wash if not a tad bit worse then a wash.

Of course, 17% depends on what your actual current base salary is (I assumed under 100k)

detroitbabu
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Re: Need advice - Job

Post by detroitbabu » Tue Aug 01, 2017 7:51 am

Thanks everyone!
To start with I need to go to the office 4 days/week.
I was also told that after 6 months, I may be able to work remotely.

Still interviewing and keeping options open.
I will post an update when I have one.
Thanks once again.

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Re: Need advice - Job

Post by bloom2708 » Tue Aug 01, 2017 4:08 pm

I would not trade a work at home job for a 2 hour commute each day. No way, no how.

~500 hours gone from the year sitting in your car. Nope. Life is too short.
"We are here not to please but to provoke thoughtfulness" Unknown Boglehead

JBTX
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Re: Need advice - Job

Post by JBTX » Tue Aug 01, 2017 4:48 pm

JuniorBH wrote:I agree with a lot of the other posters who have said not to go in and say "I have xx offer, will you match". It sets the wrong tone right off the bat.

Personally, I would go to my manager and ask for a raise; do a little market research and point out to him/her that you're seeing similar positions in the market at % higher and while you don't want to leave, you can't afford to leave money on the table. One way to phrase it is "I have LinkedIn recruiters emailing

At big companies, I understand that may not accomplish anything because of all the approvals needed to get a raise (I work at such a company). But, if you do this step first and it gets you no where, then you can go get an offer and tell them to match. Once you get to this point though, be prepared to leave if they aren't going to match.
I wouldn't just go and say you have another offer and demand it be matched. But depending on the relationship between you and your boss, to go in and say "I really like working with the company and like working for you. I've just been given an offer that is 10% higher. My preference is to stay here. Is there anything you can do to bring the compensation more in line?"

Of course there is some risk in doing this. The boss could get feelings hurt. You have to know your boss ( and their boss) and make a judgement. And also have to be prepared to take the offer if it backfires.

I will say as a former boss if my employee came and just asked for a raise without some sort of quantitative basis and justification (like another offer or that employee was paid significantly less than comparable employees and he/she somehow knew his) I would have been rather annoyed.

detroitbabu
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Re: Need advice - Job

Post by detroitbabu » Sun Oct 29, 2017 12:13 pm

Update:

I rejected the 2 hour daily commute offer.
I had another offer in the meanwhile from another company with a better role/title and a 20% raise.
My manager offered me only a 10% raise.

I start tomorrow with the new company.
The commute is 15 mins tops via back roads.

Thanks everyone for chiming in with their thoughts.
Last edited by detroitbabu on Sun Oct 29, 2017 12:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Sandtrap
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Re: Need advice - Job

Post by Sandtrap » Sun Oct 29, 2017 12:26 pm

Congratulations.
:sharebeer

Traveler
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Re: Need advice - Job

Post by Traveler » Sun Oct 29, 2017 7:37 pm

Congratulations! Good luck in the new job!

scooterdog
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Re: Need advice - Job

Post by scooterdog » Mon Oct 30, 2017 8:53 am

Great to hear!

Such a truism: "In business, you don't get what you deserve, you get what you negotiate."

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gunn_show
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Re: Need advice - Job

Post by gunn_show » Mon Oct 30, 2017 11:16 am

detroitbabu wrote:
Sun Oct 29, 2017 12:13 pm
Update:

I rejected the 2 hour daily commute offer.
I had another offer in the meanwhile from another company with a better role/title and a 20% raise.
My manager offered me only a 10% raise.

I start tomorrow with the new company.
The commute is 15 mins tops via back roads.

Thanks everyone for chiming in with their thoughts.
Well done, congrats! Great to see some of these turn out positive from time to time, and to get updated. GL in the new gig
"I love competition. And I want to win." R. Murdoch

RudyS
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Re: Need advice - Job

Post by RudyS » Mon Oct 30, 2017 1:18 pm

Good for you! Thanks for updating us.

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Pajamas
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Re: Need advice - Job

Post by Pajamas » Mon Oct 30, 2017 1:21 pm

detroitbabu wrote:
Sun Oct 29, 2017 12:13 pm
Update:

I rejected the 2 hour daily commute offer.
I had another offer in the meanwhile from another company with a better role/title and a 20% raise.
My manager offered me only a 10% raise.

I start tomorrow with the new company.
The commute is 15 mins tops via back roads.
Congratulations and good luck with the new job! :beer

bloom2708
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Re: Need advice - Job

Post by bloom2708 » Mon Oct 30, 2017 4:13 pm

Congrats on the new role.

I would to avoid a 2 hour+ commute. I would take a pay cut to avoid that. Well played.
"We are here not to please but to provoke thoughtfulness" Unknown Boglehead

cherijoh
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Re: Need advice - Job

Post by cherijoh » Mon Oct 30, 2017 4:42 pm

Beth* wrote:
Fri Jul 28, 2017 3:45 pm
Do you need the extra money? Are you having trouble paying bills and leading a reasonable life-style?

My thoughts on money are that we all need a certain amount to maintain a reasonable life-style without worrying about money all the time. Worrying about paying bills is no fun at all. However, once you hit that level of income, other things become equally as important as money if not more so. Two hours of lost time a day is very far from trivial.
+1

I go into the office about once per week and it takes anywhere from 40 minutes if I leave really early to 1 hr plus if I tried to get there just on time. (I usually just go in early and then grab breakfast). Going home can be anywhere from an 1 - 1.5 hours depending on how many buses I get stuck behind. That data is for when it isn't raining - with rain all bets are off. Parking is expensive.

If I were pulled back into the office I would decide that was a sign from above to retire. (which I am now planning to do anyway).

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